Confused-homebrew prep

jasthace

New Member
Ive been reading various homebrew treads most of them recommend just using Benzyl Alcohol{@6%} with powder plus method.But others say you need to add Benzyl Benzoate{@about20%}to suspend the particles and stop them crashing or crystallising causing very painfull injections.Which is the correct method? Are all the recipes that dont add Benzyl Benzoate incorrect?? and a whole lot of people in for a world of pain (0)( ) :O ?
 
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some things dont require bb, such as test cyp, however somethings do require it. yur always better off using bb to thin out and for less pain injection
 
Good thing you gave him such a fast reply fierce. If he hasn't died yet, I'm sure he's glad to have an answer..[:o)]
 
I beg your portion/pardon. I am no chef, pharmacist, or dealer. But I can tell you simple chemistry and physics principles mandate 20% BB on cyp. You can tell by the melting point.. High MP require more amounts of solvent. This is why shitass UGLs can't get Cyp to hold in solution at 250... Plus they think they are impressing someone by chinching out on ingredients, while disuguising it as an efficient health concern. The BB plays a key role in keeping the solution fluid for 24 - 48 hours for proper dispesement through the muscle....:):popcorn:

some things dont require bb, such as test cyp, however somethings do require it. yur always better off using bb to thin out and for less pain injection
 
Don't I know you from somewhere.:confused::rolleyes: I was actually traveling through your neck of the woods today....;) Jas needs no introduction....

Getting a little trigger happy on that post count there. The all seeing eye knows you regardless..:p

Good thing you gave him such a fast reply fierce. If he hasn't died yet, I'm sure he's glad to have an answer..[:o)]
 
6% BA? Ouch!

There is no reason to go over 2% unless you like enhancing tissue damage. Pharmaceutical grade gear, I think, only uses around 0.9%. I think the idea of using ridiculously high amounts of BA was started by homebrewers who think it will "kill off" any remaining bacteria, or maybe by dealers trying to compensate for lousy cleanliness practices. But really, the purpose of BA is not to sterilize, it is to help keep an already sterile solution sterile. The sterilizing aspect should be taken care of with a 0.2u filter. Don't bother heating it, there is no point if you filter it properly and have 1-2% BA concentration.
 
Don't I know you from somewhere.:confused::rolleyes: I was actually traveling through your neck of the woods today....;) Jas needs no introduction....

Getting a little trigger happy on that post count there. The all seeing eye knows you regardless..:p

Not sure I understand these ramblings bro...

My original post was referring to the fact that fierce revived a 4 y/o thread.
 
6% BA? Ouch!

There is no reason to go over 2% unless you like enhancing tissue damage. Pharmaceutical grade gear, I think, only uses around 0.9%. I think the idea of using ridiculously high amounts of BA was started by homebrewers who think it will "kill off" any remaining bacteria, or maybe by dealers trying to compensate for lousy cleanliness practices. But really, the purpose of BA is not to sterilize, it is to help keep an already sterile solution sterile. The sterilizing aspect should be taken care of with a 0.2u filter. Don't bother heating it, there is no point if you filter it properly and have 1-2% BA concentration.

dont listen to any of this bullshit-its all wrong-you obviously have no clue what your talking about-and have never brewed your own gear-so please keep these uneducated comments to yourself
 
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Uhhhh... Go ahead and set everyone straight then if you're such an elite homebrewer. Don't just say someone is wrong without saying why.
 
i guess we can start with your BA comment first

Article by mad_cereal_lover - July 2008

In this article I will review the main causes of localised muscular pain, tenderness and soreness that are experienced as a result of intramuscular (IM) injections. There are two main causative groups which injection pain can be categorised:

1. Pain due to route of administration
2. Pain due to the substance being injected

Within these two categories there are further sub-groups for causes of injection pain, and these will be discussed in further detail.

1. Pain due to route of administration

i Invasiveness of injection.

The initial cause of injection pain that may be experienced is quite simply the fact that an IM injection itself is an invasive procedure, in that the body's natural barrier of skin is being penetrated by a sharp needle and any further cellular content along the needle's path is being sheared. This in itself, although relatively invasive, can cause some pain. This pain tends to be initial, however due to the design of sterile needles for injection, the curved nature of the needle point allows for minimal pain, and thus this is not a common cause of post-injection pain.

ii Opening a new IM injection site.

When a new muscular site is invaded and a volume of substance is injected therein, there is often some soreness associated with such an injection. The muscle group is not used to containing an additional volume of a substance, thus pain can result. This is usually only experienced when a site is first used for an IM injection. This is why when using a new site it is encouraged to inject a smaller amount initially, from 0.5-1ml dependent upon muscle size. Such pain and soreness usually ceases after a site has received at least one injection.

iii Physical location of injection.

Often when injecting a substance, the physical location, that is where the needle releases the substance, can result in discomfort after the injection. This is most likely due to the substance (especially if oil based and slowly absorbed) sitting in between muscle groups or in a small muscle, as this will cause more pain than being injected into the middle of a muscle or a larger muscle. This can happen from time to time even with experienced users.

iv Volume of substance injected. Tying in with point 1(ii), the volume of injection will also make a significant difference to any soreness and pain experienced. Generally larger volumes are better tolerated in larger muscle groups (gluteus, quadriceps, etc), with smaller muscle groups (biceps, triceps, etc) fair better with smaller volumes (<2ml). As you increase the volume injected, you increase the amount of substance contained within the muscle that is normally present, thus you increase the risk of an inflammatory response and soreness. Very large volumes (>5-6ml, especially of oil-based substances) are not advised due to the risk of developing a sterile abscess.

2. Pain due to the substance being injected

i Abscess development. As with any substance, unless it is sterile (and even in sterile cases bacteria on skin and body hair may be pushed past the skin barrier inside the body by the injection procedure) there is a high risk of developing an internal infection known as an abscess. This will result in large amount of swelling, redness, flu-like symptoms and increased lymphocytes thus increased inflammation resulting in a fair degree of pain experienced. The risk of such infections being developed when using completely sterile products however is very low.

ii Solvent concentration of substance. The concentration and type of solvents used in the preparation of the substance to be injected will affect any pain and soreness that will be experienced post-injection. Certain buffers and solvents used when injected in pure form give a fair amount of soreness. For example, some peptides are suspended in 100mM acetic acid, which when injected even in small amounts can give the user some discomfort. It is an important point to make that pain resulting from solvent concentrations used is most likely to commence quite soon after the injection, from a few minutes to a few hours maximum. Pain that takes longer than this to develop is usually due to other factors discussed here.

Another common solvent used as a preservative in anabolic steroid and other IM injection preparations, is benzyl alcohol (BA). At high concentrations, BA will cause injection pain in the vast majority of users. However in concentrations <10% BA, most will experience little discomfort due to BA. Many people claim that underground laboratories that make injectable anabolic steroids in a non-regulated manner use high BA percentages in their products such as testosterone propionate which is why users experience pain. However, as explained here and in point 2(iii), the BA is unlikely to be the cause of pain. This is why it should be noted that in actual fact, many pharmaceutical preparations contain higher than expected amounts of BA in them. deca-Pronabol, a pharmaceutically produced form of nandrolone decanoate, contains 9% BA and users generally report no pain associated with its injection. Some preparations of sustanon-250 by established pharmaceutical companies are made with 10% BA (0.1ml BA per 1.0ml ampoule). However, many would here argue that sustanon-250 is a sore injection for many. Despite this, when one looks at the make-up of the active ingredients of sustanon-250, we see a combined testosterone propionate and phenylpropionate amount of roughly 100mg/ml. For reasons discussed in part 2(iii), we may safely assume that the pain is more likely to occur due to the high concentration of these short esters, as opposed to merely high BA concentration. However, it is worth remembering that everyone reacts differently to various solvents and 10% BA may not cause pain for many users, but it will cause soreness for a significant percentage of other users. Other solvents within the preparation apart from the ones outlined here can also contribute or cause injection pain; however the ones discussed are the most significant in the context of anabolic steroid preparations.

3. Concentration of active product. This is probably the most prevalent cause of post-injection pain experienced by anabolic steroid users. This is most likely due to the demand for underground laboratories to produce more concentrated steroid preparations (high mg/ml of hormone) to reduce number and volumes of injections. One good example of this is the production of testosterone propionate by many different labs. If we look at the preparation of testosterone propionate by legitimate pharmaceutical companies, we see that the maximum concentration normally produced is 50mg/ml. Despite this, most underground labs today will produce multi-use vials of testosterone propionate that are at a minimum of 100mg/ml. Hormones that contain short esters on them (like acetate, propionate, phenylpropionate) have a much higher melting point and thus cannot be made as concentrated as those with longer esters (enanthate, decanoate, etc). Although testosterone propionate can be effectively made in standard amounts of solvents and oil to 100mg/ml without crashing out of this solution, once injected in the body, the solvents tend to leach out of the solution very quickly, being absorbed much quicker than the oil. This leaves behind oil and hormone in the muscle, and at the higher concentrations (which rely on solvents to not crash in solution) this will result in some of the hormone crashing out of solution to give crystals. These crystals cause significant muscular discomfort, and also can result in the recruitment of lymphocytes involved in inflammation thus the area around the crystals can get inflamed with a build up of blood cells. This takes time to dissipate and longer for the crystals to be absorbed into the body, which is why this type of pain and discomfort usually lasts for several days.

It should be noted however that there are certain carriers and solvents which allow for higher mg/ml preparations to be made that result in the reduction of pain. One solvent occasionally used is guaicol, which allows for more concentrated solutions to be produced and also acts as a slight analgesic or pain reliever at the site of injection. A more useful lipid carrier as an alternative to a normal oil carrier is ethyl oleate (EO). EO can be substituted for other carrier oils, and is a less viscous (thinner) carrier that also allows more of the hormone to be dissolved in it compared with other oils. The safety of EO for injections in humans is often questioned; however several different pharmaceutically produced injection products have been made that use EO as a carrier, most notably Farmak testosterone propionate. Furthermore, ethanol (alcohol) is converted to several products in the body when ingested, one being oleic acid. One potential issue with the use of EO however, is that a small percentage of users may experience an allergic-type reaction to its use, typified by a rash and some local discomfort, yet this is a more rare reaction to EO.

Below is a list of common anabolic steroids and when prepared with common percentages of solvents and normal oil carriers (not EO), what the maximum normal concentration that can be achieved before pain is experienced:
testosterone Propionate <100mg/ml
testosterone Enanthate <300mg/ml
testosterone Cypionate <250mg/ml
nandrolone Decanoate <325mg/ml
nandrolone Phenylpropionate <150mg/ml
trenbolone Acetate <100mg/ml
trenbolone Enanthate <250mg/ml
Boldenone Undecylenate (eq) <900mg/ml
Methenolone Enanthate <75mg/ml
Drostanolone Propionate <150mg/ml

In summary, there are various different causatives of IM pain post-injection, however the most prevalent is likely to be the concentration of hormone used in the preparation and secondly to a lesser extent, the concentration of solvents used. However as outlined, with any injection this is an invasive procedure with regards to breaking the body's natural barriers, there is always a risk of soreness and discomfort.
 
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So? Some random guy on the internet saying that >10% BA doesn't add to the pain is your proof that it doesn't?

Next time you get a nice big cut, grab some BA and pour it on there. Let us know how it feels.

High BA isn't the sole cause of injection pain, just one of them.

You still haven't addressed the rest of my "uneducated comments". You must have a lot to say since it was "bullshit".
 
Don't bother heating it, there is no point if you filter it properly and have 1-2% BA concentration.

what exactly do you mean dont heat it? i mean you have to heat to solve the powder-or do you have a magic way of doing it yourself.....................

i just dont like it when people spout off about everyone having lousy brewing practices-a retarted monkey could prolly brew his own painless gear
 
So? Some random guy on the internet saying that >10% BA doesn't add to the pain is your proof that it doesn't?

Next time you get a nice big cut, grab some BA and pour it on there. Let us know how it feels.

High BA isn't the sole cause of injection pain, just one of them.

You still haven't addressed the rest of my "uneducated comments". You must have a lot to say since it was "bullshit".

actually i have injected BA to see if it hurt-and it doesnt-in the medical community its actually used to reduce pain from injections-and if you take your time and read the entire article this entire thing was backed up and refferanced i just dont feel like looking it up to prove it to you cause i know im right
 
what exactly do you mean dont heat it? i mean you have to heat to solve the powder-or do you have a magic way of doing it yourself.....................

i just dont like it when people spout off about everyone having lousy brewing practices-a retarted monkey could prolly brew his own painless gear
Actually, for many preparations heat isn't necessary at all other than to maybe speed things up a little. With some powders it might take longer, but if something won't dissolve at room temperature, then it won't hold at room temperature either and eventually crash. I'm sure you knew that since you're the expert.

But, what I was actually referring to was heating to sterilize. There is no point as long as you use a 0.2 micron filter.
 
Actually, for many preparations heat isn't necessary at all other than to maybe speed things up a little. With some powders it might take longer, but if something won't dissolve at room temperature, then it won't hold at room temperature either and eventually crash. I'm sure you knew that since you're the expert.

But, what I was actually referring to was heating to sterilize. There is no point as long as you use a 0.2 micron filter.

your funny-totally writing off the fact that many pharm grade products use much higher amounts of BA with 0 pain but believe what you want...........................

the only time i have ever had anything crash is when i left it in the garage-and if you think you can get 150mg prop to solve without heat...............then its even more blatanly obvious that you have never brewed ;)
 
your arguing a mute point-the fact of the matter is your wrong and telling people not to heat their gear is just stupid..............the only solid advice you have given is to use a .22um filter

with something simple like test e 3% BA 15% BB half EO half Grapeseed oil is about the best combo their is
 
and one more thing and im done with school for today........................BA actually does kill bacteria-just not all of it
 
your funny-totally writing off the fact that many pharm grade products use much higher amounts of BA with 0 pain but believe what you want...........................

the only time i have ever had anything crash is when i left it in the garage-and if you think you can get 150mg prop to solve without heat...............then its even more blatanly obvious that you have never brewed ;)
Pharma gear is also usually a lower concentration, which also lowers the pain. But yes, there is definitely a difference in pain if you compared 0.9% to 5-10% BA.

Proper brewing procedure involves dissolving the powder in the solvents first before adding the oil. So yes, I could make 150mg/ml Prop just as easy as I could make 100mg/ml Prop. The only difference is the amount of oil you add to the preparation after the powder dissolves. Again, I'm sure you knew that already since you're the expert.
 
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