Defunding the Uncontitutional ObambiCare

james2012

New Member
Here is the gist of the strategy: GOP Can Defund Obamacare If They Win House

With estimates ranging from a mild House pickup for the Republicans to over 50 seats from - the HUFFINGTON POST! - to 100 seat pickup from Gallop, it looks like the House will turn over to the Republicans.

It ain't over till its over but a little insider birdie told me the GOP is not about to play games with the Tea Party and destroy the wave that put them in office. This time, the leadership will show backbone and defund ObamaCare to 0, effectively killing it outright until 2013 when it can officially be repealed. This will create some business uncertainty, but the alternative of exploding deficits is far worse. So bye, bye, piece of crap pie. I think this sucker is toast and Obama will walk out of office with not one single major piece of progressive legislation to lay claim to. Plus he will go down as probably the worse president in modern memory if not evah!

It has been a truly "teachable" moment for many, especially the 4 in 10 Obama supporters who are now abandoning him. Sniffle, sniffle.
 
How is it unconstitutional (Or uncontitutional as you phrase it)? The GOP supports the individual bills, but are against it because the party is who called it Obama-care rather than a universal health care bill. Individually, the mandates are believed to not go far enough when broken down.

I am not a Democrat or one of these new-age conservatives. I am a moderate with right wing beliefs and left wing ideals. I want the best of both worlds. But the same old conservative tactics are what is driving this to be called Obama-care. I doubt you remember when the Hillary - health bill was pushed, by hillary clinton some ten years ago. The same label the bill after the person and attack the person was tried and worked, so it was used again.

If anything, you break the bill down and the majority of the country wants the mandates to go farther. We already pay for all of this. Over time the bill pays for itself. These bills are investments in the country's future. Pay more now, save later. If all politicians used this method of operation we would not be in the red today. You cant cut tax's when you do not have enough income. You cant spend more than you make. You cant allow legislation that makes outsourcing beneficial. You cant deregulate volatile markets. I could go on, but taking this bill down is the step back into the wrong direction.

If you are under 26, have kids that age, or know people that age, ask about the insurance mandate to cover college students. Or if you have insurance under a business and they change providers, check to see who cant get coverage due to preexisting conditions. Or even worse, have had parents or elderly loved one's get dropped from health care because they develop a condition or one is found which the company can claim was pre-existing.

The bill helps the vast majority of americans. It does force you to buy care if you can afford it, but we live in a society where kids want shit for free. Well, I pay my tax's and will pay double if needed to protect the country I love, keep me save, keep me healthy, and maintain this quality of life we all enjoy. If saving a couple bucks is worse screwing our kids out of money later down the line is what you want, go ahead and stop this bill.
 
Jeet Kung Do, it can be broken down anyway you like. There will be one problem that
will over rides politics, policy, statistics or polls. That problem is that the government makes
an even bigger mess of any mess it tries to clean up.
Do you really want these people making decisions on your health?
 
I still can pick the doctor I go to, decide if I want a procedure or not, ect. I still have my rights. If the bill eventually gets an amendment to expound its reach I would be on the wagon to stop it, but that is another story all together.
 
How is it unconstitutional (Or uncontitutional as you phrase it)? The GOP supports the individual bills, but are against it because the party is who called it Obama-care rather than a universal health care bill. Individually, the mandates are believed to not go far enough when broken down.

I am not a Democrat or one of these new-age conservatives. I am a moderate with right wing beliefs and left wing ideals. I want the best of both worlds. But the same old conservative tactics are what is driving this to be called Obama-care. I doubt you remember when the Hillary - health bill was pushed, by hillary clinton some ten years ago. The same label the bill after the person and attack the person was tried and worked, so it was used again.

If anything, you break the bill down and the majority of the country wants the mandates to go farther. We already pay for all of this. Over time the bill pays for itself. These bills are investments in the country's future. Pay more now, save later. If all politicians used this method of operation we would not be in the red today. You cant cut tax's when you do not have enough income. You cant spend more than you make. You cant allow legislation that makes outsourcing beneficial. You cant deregulate volatile markets. I could go on, but taking this bill down is the step back into the wrong direction.

If you are under 26, have kids that age, or know people that age, ask about the insurance mandate to cover college students. Or if you have insurance under a business and they change providers, check to see who cant get coverage due to preexisting conditions. Or even worse, have had parents or elderly loved one's get dropped from health care because they develop a condition or one is found which the company can claim was pre-existing.

The bill helps the vast majority of americans. It does force you to buy care if you can afford it, but we live in a society where kids want shit for free. Well, I pay my tax's and will pay double if needed to protect the country I love, keep me save, keep me healthy, and maintain this quality of life we all enjoy. If saving a couple bucks is worse screwing our kids out of money later down the line is what you want, go ahead and stop this bill.

Rather than answer this question, I think it would be an excellent exercise for you to figure out the historical context of the constitution, how it was ratified, what the Founder's said in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers to ensure states ratified - they promised the various Clauses were only to provide some small extra coverage for Congress to weakly expand its powers to meet it's enumerated powers. Read the enumerated powers. Google the issue and look within the context of all of the above and that will answer your question. Congress was NEVER INTENDED BY THE FOUNDERS to have anything near the power they have today and the constitution does NOT give the SCOTUS the right the impart upon Congress powers not enumerated to it in the constitution.

This is a very easy question to figure out. When 70% of the population does not want a bill and it passes anyway, then power is being abused by a few elites. Sound familiar? Our sovereignty lies in the states and the people, in Britain today and during the RW it lay in the government. This makes it easy to abuse power and our Founder's saw that and rectified it when our government was formed. In the United States of America anyone who does not understand that the government derives is power from the people either is completely unaware of the constitution or listening to the liberal echo chamber that believes the document is something it is not.

Fine, if you want it, you got it. Republican's stand to pick up the House and possibly the Senate. When Obama is gone, I hope the Republicans give you a taste of what it is like to have bills shoved down your throat come hell or high water. Backroom deals and complete lack of transparency. Maybe then you will take the time to look up and understand what the word Statist means and why both parties are guilty of this false belief in federal supremacy. Maybe then you will take the time to read the Tenth Amendment Center and find out why the constitution has been trampled on by BOTH parties, but why Obama and his ilk are sh*tting on the document.
 
Rather than answer this question, I think it would be an excellent exercise for you to figure out the historical context of the constitution, how it was ratified, what the Founder's said in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers to ensure states ratified - they promised the various Clauses were only to provide some small extra coverage for Congress to weakly expand its powers to meet it's enumerated powers. Read the enumerated powers. Google the issue and look within the context of all of the above and that will answer your question. Congress was NEVER INTENDED BY THE FOUNDERS to have anything near the power they have today and the constitution does NOT give the SCOTUS the right the impart upon Congress powers not enumerated to it in the constitution.

This is a very easy question to figure out. When 70% of the population does not want a bill and it passes anyway, then power is being abused by a few elites. Sound familiar? Our sovereignty lies in the states and the people, in Britain today and during the RW it lay in the government. This makes it easy to abuse power and our Founder's saw that and rectified it when our government was formed. In the United States of America anyone who does not understand that the government derives is power from the people either is completely unaware of the constitution or listening to the liberal echo chamber that believes the document is something it is not.

Fine, if you want it, you got it. Republican's stand to pick up the House and possibly the Senate. When Obama is gone, I hope the Republicans give you a taste of what it is like to have bills shoved down your throat come hell or high water. Backroom deals and complete lack of transparency. Maybe then you will take the time to look up and understand what the word Statist means and why both parties are guilty of this false belief in federal supremacy. Maybe then you will take the time to read the Tenth Amendment Center and find out why the constitution has been trampled on by BOTH parties, but why Obama and his ilk are sh*tting on the document.

*Sigh*

Lets not go into this with a Poly Sci major, shall we?

The reach of the constitution expounds as it is a laving document. The check and balance system is delicate in the sense that each forefather wanted something different. Some, well, the vast majority wanted us to have a King, and the stand alone against that was Washington when he took the position of president, and sat down creating president. Initially the congress was to be more or less a gathering ground for the elite to have a voice in public policy. This evolved over time just as the role of president, vice president, house, senate, and constitution. Infact, the constitution never even creates a definate congress or court system in totality. It is and always was a combination of loose yet direct ideals to control the country, which were established by the intention of several different interests. Remember, the forefathers were businessmen, politicians, lawyers, and innovators. They all had different wants based upon industry and ideals. On several issues the forefathers strongly disagreed upon, making the living document subject to whom was in power in terms of control of legislative branch and executive branch.

The forefathers wanted to select a 'King/President' and have the Senate as place to have elite influence as aforementioned. The electoral college is the was to ensure they have a say. Joe Blow cant run for office, and even so, some individuals have a greater say over the political process than the vast of the country. If you want to stick with the outline and use the constitution and powers as a non-living document we would have slavery, a King, no Supreme Court, and if I dare say, not be a country. If we remember the great depression, the very same Enumerated powers were expounded to grant the very same programs which got us out of the depression and allowed FDR to order the production of weaponry in response to the get americans to work programs, which were used in WWII. Its not a stretch to say if not for the expansion of powers of each branch we would not be a country today. Some connections are direct, others non-direct, but history shows that the constitution needed to change and adapt to meet the current problems.

Back to this issue, Congress has the ability to tax and regulate commerce. It is a stretch, but is a view and read of the constitution. You can say the democrats are doing this for the first time and its unconstitutional, but as far as party's go, the conservative Supreme Court ruled the Bush v Gore case against the constitution, stating the constitution gave them the ability to rule differently than the constitution grants. The Supreme Court was given structure after the constitution was created by the executive branch, thusly was granted its ability's based upon the executive branch's reach, not the constitution. Catch-22, no?

Back to your 70% number, this is out of the spin of the right wing. The individual mandates are supported by the vast majority of americans, and most feel they do not go far enough. Heck, many republican candidates voted down the bill, call it unconstitutional and then adopt the singular elements of the bill and call them original ideas. Break the bill down, americans like it. Political spin is what is influencing public opinion.

This same idealism of going against expansion of the rights of government is the same issue which sprung de-regulation. Anti-Trust laws, Fair Housing, ect. Mitt Romney created a very simular health care plan as Governor of MA and this was not opposed being called unconstitutional. This is simply political objective to slander one party.


Back to your central argument, about the reach of the rights of people and states. This is a subject the forefathers were split over. State vs National rights were never agreed upon, and thats how the Senate and Congress took shape, to please both political view points. As for it being for the people, as aforementioned, the forefathers really intended it to be for the 'Rich White Elite' as justly reinforced by the structure of the Electoral College, Redistricting, and Voter tests/requirements. It is very hard to argue that you are correct when you impose your view point upon that of people who were so opposed to that belief that they were willing to not form a nation over despite the overwhelming issues with their home nation.

I need to divulge deeper into the reasons behind the forefathers rebelling, the real economic interests, the lack of real input by the vast majority of americans, ect. But leaving the history review as it is, I want to discuss my opinion.

The constitution is a living document according to the vast majority of the historical community and of the constitutional historians. The few who disagree do not refute the needed expansion of the constitution in the past. It seems you want to argue this point over the political lines. Thats fine as the conservative party is strongly influenced by a traditional moralistic approach and shares the beliefs of conservative forefathers, but it ends at that, a belief. If you do not agree with the policy, argue that, but calling it not constitutional based upon the opinion of only some of the forefathers is no real way to prove such an opinion is accurate, especially when all the forefathers left some areas of the constitution to develop over life, such as the need and expansion of powers.

The last sentiment I will leave this with is consider these two men: Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. Two of the most influential men in respect to the formation of the United States of America. They had different opinions on many issues which was the reason for the creation of the modern political party structure. Both have different policies which were later adopted into the constitution. Neither were 100% correct in retrospect of application and longevity of a country. Neither of these men were in agreement on serious issues. Stating that the forefathers, who were so divided to create political parties, had your opinion is more than false, but an incorrect interpretation of history.
 
*Sigh*

Lets not go into this with a Poly Sci major, shall we?

The reach of the constitution expounds as it is a laving document. The check and balance system is delicate in the sense that each forefather wanted something different. Some, well, the vast majority wanted us to have a King, and the stand alone against that was Washington when he took the position of president, and sat down creating president. Initially the congress was to be more or less a gathering ground for the elite to have a voice in public policy. This evolved over time just as the role of president, vice president, house, senate, and constitution. Infact, the constitution never even creates a definate congress or court system in totality. It is and always was a combination of loose yet direct ideals to control the country, which were established by the intention of several different interests. Remember, the forefathers were businessmen, politicians, lawyers, and innovators. They all had different wants based upon industry and ideals. On several issues the forefathers strongly disagreed upon, making the living document subject to whom was in power in terms of control of legislative branch and executive branch.

The forefathers wanted to select a 'King/President' and have the Senate as place to have elite influence as aforementioned. The electoral college is the was to ensure they have a say. Joe Blow cant run for office, and even so, some individuals have a greater say over the political process than the vast of the country. If you want to stick with the outline and use the constitution and powers as a non-living document we would have slavery, a King, no Supreme Court, and if I dare say, not be a country. If we remember the great depression, the very same Enumerated powers were expounded to grant the very same programs which got us out of the depression and allowed FDR to order the production of weaponry in response to the get americans to work programs, which were used in WWII. Its not a stretch to say if not for the expansion of powers of each branch we would not be a country today. Some connections are direct, others non-direct, but history shows that the constitution needed to change and adapt to meet the current problems.

Back to this issue, Congress has the ability to tax and regulate commerce. It is a stretch, but is a view and read of the constitution. You can say the democrats are doing this for the first time and its unconstitutional, but as far as party's go, the conservative Supreme Court ruled the Bush v Gore case against the constitution, stating the constitution gave them the ability to rule differently than the constitution grants. The Supreme Court was given structure after the constitution was created by the executive branch, thusly was granted its ability's based upon the executive branch's reach, not the constitution. Catch-22, no?

Back to your 70% number, this is out of the spin of the right wing. The individual mandates are supported by the vast majority of americans, and most feel they do not go far enough. Heck, many republican candidates voted down the bill, call it unconstitutional and then adopt the singular elements of the bill and call them original ideas. Break the bill down, americans like it. Political spin is what is influencing public opinion.

This same idealism of going against expansion of the rights of government is the same issue which sprung de-regulation. Anti-Trust laws, Fair Housing, ect. Mitt Romney created a very simular health care plan as Governor of MA and this was not opposed being called unconstitutional. This is simply political objective to slander one party.


Back to your central argument, about the reach of the rights of people and states. This is a subject the forefathers were split over. State vs National rights were never agreed upon, and thats how the Senate and Congress took shape, to please both political view points. As for it being for the people, as aforementioned, the forefathers really intended it to be for the 'Rich White Elite' as justly reinforced by the structure of the Electoral College, Redistricting, and Voter tests/requirements. It is very hard to argue that you are correct when you impose your view point upon that of people who were so opposed to that belief that they were willing to not form a nation over despite the overwhelming issues with their home nation.

I need to divulge deeper into the reasons behind the forefathers rebelling, the real economic interests, the lack of real input by the vast majority of americans, ect. But leaving the history review as it is, I want to discuss my opinion.

The constitution is a living document according to the vast majority of the historical community and of the constitutional historians. The few who disagree do not refute the needed expansion of the constitution in the past. It seems you want to argue this point over the political lines. Thats fine as the conservative party is strongly influenced by a traditional moralistic approach and shares the beliefs of conservative forefathers, but it ends at that, a belief. If you do not agree with the policy, argue that, but calling it not constitutional based upon the opinion of only some of the forefathers is no real way to prove such an opinion is accurate, especially when all the forefathers left some areas of the constitution to develop over life, such as the need and expansion of powers.

The last sentiment I will leave this with is consider these two men: Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. Two of the most influential men in respect to the formation of the United States of America. They had different opinions on many issues which was the reason for the creation of the modern political party structure. Both have different policies which were later adopted into the constitution. Neither were 100% correct in retrospect of application and longevity of a country. Neither of these men were in agreement on serious issues. Stating that the forefathers, who were so divided to create political parties, had your opinion is more than false, but an incorrect interpretation of history.

Oh please. Your major is of little concern for me. I have eaten guys like you for lunch and farted you out. I'll get back to you on this one because it's gonna be a really long response and teach you a few lessons in the process. I'll be the master on this one. My mentor was Dr. Larry Hunter and Lewis Uhler - both former policy advisors to Ronald Reagan so don't try to impress me with your "credentials" because - to put it bluntly - you are standing in the liberal education echo chamber. I'll have a treatise written for you by the end of next week or the following week because you have a lot to unlearn and the process if often slow and painful for those who really are intellectually honest and serious about truth.

Good God man, I can't tell you how many times I get this BS I'm a political science major. Guess what, so is my brother and he has learned more from me - by his admission - than he ever learned in college. There a things they just don't teach you in college.

So I shall get into it with you. Bring your best game - your gonna need it.
 
Oh please. Your major is of little concern for me. I have eaten guys like you for lunch and farted you out. I'll get back to you on this one because it's gonna be a really long response and teach you a few lessons in the process. I'll be the master on this one. My mentor was Dr. Larry Hunter and Lewis Uhler - both former policy advisors to Ronald Reagan so don't try to impress me with your "credentials" because - to put it bluntly - you are standing in the liberal education echo chamber. I'll have a treatise written for you by the end of next week or the following week because you have a lot to unlearn and the process if often slow and painful for those who really are intellectually honest and serious about truth.

Good God man, I can't tell you how many times I get this BS I'm a political science major. Guess what, so is my brother and he has learned more from me - by his admission - than he ever learned in college. There a things they just don't teach you in college.

So I shall get into it with you. Bring your best game - your gonna need it.

Lesson 1 - the constitution is not a living document except under the process of amendment. The SCOTUS can check the powers of the President and congress by interpreting the constitutionality of a law or action, but should NEVER do so by judical activism thereby legislating from the bench. If the Supreme Court were meant to have that power and to provide Congress unlimited power by judicial fiat, there would never have been enumerated powers for the Congress to begin with, and the need for amendment to change the constitution would not have been included. Next week I will start with the Marshall Court and show just how corrupt some of the rulings were that started the march towards centralized power. This is going to be a multi-week process. I don't think I can put this down all at once - your just too lost a case and this is going to take some time.

Maybe you should have picked a different major.
 
Maybe you should try and not act like your opinion is correct, when your points do not refute my statement but rather indulge upon my prior knowledge.

You skipped over my simple disagreement with if this legislation is unconstitutional. As aforementioned historians call it a living document. As in men smarter than you and me. I already went over the merit of a living and dead document, if it were not living we would not be a nation today.

That leads me full circle, the legislation is constitutional granted by the ability of congress to regulate enterprise. At one point in time it was unconstitutional, but now it is, circa the 1900's.

Other points of the bill infringe upon the limits of the constitution, such as some specific mandates, but the legislation does not cross the line previous legislation has, such as Auto-Insurance mandates, meaning it is not acceptable to do so.


Please take your BS elsewhere. I understand the entire legislative process, the history of this nation, and the thoughts behind the constitution. Pick your damn forefather and argue he would not agree with this bill. But the constitution is living for a reason. We operate on past practices to deem what is acceptable, with precedent. I have done civil debate with men with higher credentials in college, I can assure you of this. I simply state my history for the simple fact you posted no proof or concise argument to which area's of the constitution this bill infringes upon, and more specifically which elements of the bill of rights. Or even at that the discourse between the major historical minds of our era. Yes, one cant deny that the bill is rather far stretching, but it does not violate the constitution. No jargon or opinion can stop that. If it did, the Supreme Court would rule against it via appeals. This is a political ploy at best, and at worst a direct strike and the advancement of the american ideals. We are behind all advanced nations in terms of medical care and rights. This partisan attack is simply keeping us at that point.

The powers and congress and the supreme court have expounded over time, as I stated they were either non-existent of structure or nothing like they are today. They were designed to have none of the powers they have today, that is true. Neither was the president. He had very few but specific limits which the position stepped over historically. Your argument is not based upon segments of the constitution but rather your opinion on the structure of the constitution and role of government. You learned from members of Reagan's policy advisory committee, as you stated, and as you should know Reagan also had a plethora of religious bills that did not pass towards the end of his term, namely a large number of Evangelical bills. Ironic that this imposes upon the constitutions separation of church and state, no? You cant pick and chose what of the constitution is applicable based upon your desired goals.

If you do not agree with this piece of legislation, fine. But calling is unconstitutional and not posing any real basis for your claims is audacity in its most negative lights.

You can try to 'educate' me all you would like, but the fact is its your opinion. I am a moderate, not a liberal. You seem to want to find a political normality to attack rather than the issue. Try to force your opinion or the rudimentary mechanisms of the government all you wish, but the simple truth is I know and understand both more than you will ever give me credit for, and am simply stating the constitution is designed to expound as needed, and based on history and the application of the constitution by all parties involved, political and other wise, the bill is more than constitutional. Try to refute that point, not my knowledge, not the liberal agenda, and not your preconceived notions of who I am and my understanding of government.
 
Maybe you should try and not act like your opinion is correct, when your points do not refute my statement but rather indulge upon my prior knowledge.

You skipped over my simple disagreement with if this legislation is unconstitutional. As aforementioned historians call it a living document. As in men smarter than you and me. I already went over the merit of a living and dead document, if it were not living we would not be a nation today.

That leads me full circle, the legislation is constitutional granted by the ability of congress to regulate enterprise. At one point in time it was unconstitutional, but now it is, circa the 1900's.

Other points of the bill infringe upon the limits of the constitution, such as some specific mandates, but the legislation does not cross the line previous legislation has, such as Auto-Insurance mandates, meaning it is not acceptable to do so.


Please take your BS elsewhere. I understand the entire legislative process, the history of this nation, and the thoughts behind the constitution. Pick your damn forefather and argue he would not agree with this bill. But the constitution is living for a reason. We operate on past practices to deem what is acceptable, with precedent. I have done civil debate with men with higher credentials in college, I can assure you of this. I simply state my history for the simple fact you posted no proof or concise argument to which area's of the constitution this bill infringes upon, and more specifically which elements of the bill of rights. Or even at that the discourse between the major historical minds of our era. Yes, one cant deny that the bill is rather far stretching, but it does not violate the constitution. No jargon or opinion can stop that. If it did, the Supreme Court would rule against it via appeals. This is a political ploy at best, and at worst a direct strike and the advancement of the american ideals. We are behind all advanced nations in terms of medical care and rights. This partisan attack is simply keeping us at that point.

The powers and congress and the supreme court have expounded over time, as I stated they were either non-existent of structure or nothing like they are today. They were designed to have none of the powers they have today, that is true. Neither was the president. He had very few but specific limits which the position stepped over historically. Your argument is not based upon segments of the constitution but rather your opinion on the structure of the constitution and role of government. You learned from members of Reagan's policy advisory committee, as you stated, and as you should know Reagan also had a plethora of religious bills that did not pass towards the end of his term, namely a large number of Evangelical bills. Ironic that this imposes upon the constitutions separation of church and state, no? You cant pick and chose what of the constitution is applicable based upon your desired goals.

If you do not agree with this piece of legislation, fine. But calling is unconstitutional and not posing any real basis for your claims is audacity in its most negative lights.

You can try to 'educate' me all you would like, but the fact is its your opinion. I am a moderate, not a liberal. You seem to want to find a political normality to attack rather than the issue. Try to force your opinion or the rudimentary mechanisms of the government all you wish, but the simple truth is I know and understand both more than you will ever give me credit for, and am simply stating the constitution is designed to expound as needed, and based on history and the application of the constitution by all parties involved, political and other wise, the bill is more than constitutional. Try to refute that point, not my knowledge, not the liberal agenda, and not your preconceived notions of who I am and my understanding of government.

The issue you have here is who determines what is constitutional and what our Founders intended the powers of the SCOTUS and Congress to be within the bounds of the constitution. You conflate a constitutional scholar with the constitution itself. A constitutional scholar can vomit out case after case after case even if those cases where tainted by clearly demonstrable abuse of judicial power. That is where your education will begin next week.
 
Congradulations to you both for your power of thought. My secondary ed. was much more humble. But Im not so dull that I dont know that if the government touched it, it fails. Look at
their track record.
Also, the more hands that handle the money, the less that will be there for the supposed purpose.

Give it time and we will be going to community organizations to ask for permision to see
a medical professional. A second rate medical professional because the best will find
other work. This dummy will then tell you that you dont qualify because you are over your
BMI, because nearly everyfukinbody I know is over their BMI.
This will become the biggest jumble fuck of all time. Anyone who thinks they will be (ultimately) excluded from this party is an idiot.
 
I love how I get insulted because my opinion is different than the two of you. Its really not worth my time. I guess this comes with the territory, some people just think they cant be wrong, or rather their opinions cant be incorrect, and belittle any person with a different opinion with a sentiment to correct or re-educate them. Its rather pathetic and immature if you ask me, but then again thats what got me into this mess. Just a word of advise, if you do not want discourse or discussion on a topic, as in the inference of other opinions, do not post the idea in question on a forum, because when it boils down to it the person who did not realize that a forum is a place for others to post different opinions is ignorant one.
 
Please, everyone involved, take your singular view on the world and of other people living in it and go argue with a stump, because when looking for something to talk to whom will not differ in opinion and have the ability to follow on the same intellectual prowess as previously expressed, the stump seems to be the perfect match.

Allow me to follow in the foot path of the the optimistic humble liberal art jack-ass which seems to have addressed hatred. All liberal art programs profess a desired role to have students have a worldly outlook. Using this amazing element of outlook I can look to all the other industrialized nations which have superior health care, in terms of cost and treatment, less crime, less violence, and happier people (Let alone healthier) as proclaimed by the vast majority of studies, and ask why cant we have this? I am an American and want to have my cake and eat it to, but I am willing to give up my cake to let someone else eat it to. Let the government tax me more, fine. I work hard and am willing to pay out my ass for the safety I have. But I refuse to allow my opinion be attacked by others who simply do not want to accept others may have a different opinion. I have more than defended my opinion, on all issues concerned. When I attempt to further defend them I get belittled. Oppress others who do not fit in with your grouping. Yup, thats wonderful. So wonderful that it makes me question why not everyone does this? Oh yeah, I know why, because if history shows us one thing is that everything is cyclical. One opinion or mind set will be in control then another will be. In 50 years when the white-male is the minority, when the legislative agenda away to limit corporate influence progress further, and the singular mind-set of "My way or the high-way" is ended because of such a such multi-culture I do hope and pray another group will not shit on your opinions or ideals just because the sentiment between the two is not the same. I really do hope so, for the ego's involved and to have every persons opinion expressed equally by proportion in this country.

Please do not waste any breath on me. Do not waste your pamphlet of right-wing jargon on me. I have expressed I am a moderate and my opinion is not one you can change with such brash insults and concrete idealism of anti-everything else. Do not waste your contrasts between how the government will screw up this program based upon history either. Both thought patterns of argument are circular. I will express how I still disagree and insults do not change my thoughts, and how I still love how the US government runs public works programs when compared to other nations, and we are back at square one, with me wasting my time stating an opinion different than the loose subject of 'yours' and the other parties involved attempting to again, sorry for the over use of this word, belittle.
 
Yeah, you are right. I dont think that history is a good indicator of what the future holds either;)

You make a good point about public works programs in other countries being worse even
than here.............You are correct, but you make my point for me. Government makes a mess, any government anywhere at anytime makes a mess. Just because ours makes less mess than other governments doesnt make it right to intrust them with even more responsibility than what they are already failing with.

Medicare
Medicade
Education
Farm Sub.
Social Sec.
$800.00 hammers
Fani & Fredi
Come on bro, use your head. Think in past, present, and future. Big picture thinking.
 
I love how I get insulted because my opinion is different than the two of you. Its really not worth my time. I guess this comes with the territory, some people just think they cant be wrong, or rather their opinions cant be incorrect, and belittle any person with a different opinion with a sentiment to correct or re-educate them. Its rather pathetic and immature if you ask me, but then again thats what got me into this mess. Just a word of advise, if you do not want discourse or discussion on a topic, as in the inference of other opinions, do not post the idea in question on a forum, because when it boils down to it the person who did not realize that a forum is a place for others to post different opinions is ignorant one.

Ah, I hope you are not referring to Jeton. While I certainly like the guy and admire him and wish him the best in his struggle with his own health, I don't think him and I are on the same page politically. He is just stating he wants to watch the show by using the popcorn eating smilie. I think he will probably jump in on your side, not mine.
 
Please, everyone involved, take your singular view on the world and of other people living in it and go argue with a stump, because when looking for something to talk to whom will not differ in opinion and have the ability to follow on the same intellectual prowess as previously expressed, the stump seems to be the perfect match.

Allow me to follow in the foot path of the the optimistic humble liberal art jack-ass which seems to have addressed hatred. All liberal art programs profess a desired role to have students have a worldly outlook. Using this amazing element of outlook I can look to all the other industrialized nations which have superior health care, in terms of cost and treatment, less crime, less violence, and happier people (Let alone healthier) as proclaimed by the vast majority of studies, and ask why cant we have this? I am an American and want to have my cake and eat it to, but I am willing to give up my cake to let someone else eat it to. Let the government tax me more, fine. I work hard and am willing to pay out my ass for the safety I have. But I refuse to allow my opinion be attacked by others who simply do not want to accept others may have a different opinion. I have more than defended my opinion, on all issues concerned. When I attempt to further defend them I get belittled. Oppress others who do not fit in with your grouping. Yup, thats wonderful. So wonderful that it makes me question why not everyone does this? Oh yeah, I know why, because if history shows us one thing is that everything is cyclical. One opinion or mind set will be in control then another will be. In 50 years when the white-male is the minority, when the legislative agenda away to limit corporate influence progress further, and the singular mind-set of "My way or the high-way" is ended because of such a such multi-culture I do hope and pray another group will not shit on your opinions or ideals just because the sentiment between the two is not the same. I really do hope so, for the ego's involved and to have every persons opinion expressed equally by proportion in this country.

Please do not waste any breath on me. Do not waste your pamphlet of right-wing jargon on me. I have expressed I am a moderate and my opinion is not one you can change with such brash insults and concrete idealism of anti-everything else. Do not waste your contrasts between how the government will screw up this program based upon history either. Both thought patterns of argument are circular. I will express how I still disagree and insults do not change my thoughts, and how I still love how the US government runs public works programs when compared to other nations, and we are back at square one, with me wasting my time stating an opinion different than the loose subject of 'yours' and the other parties involved attempting to again, sorry for the over use of this word, belittle.

Through the looking glass man. Your worldview is falling apart all over the place! That is the problem with your Utopian view of the world - you don't see reality. Here are just a few examples:

Merkel: Multiculturalism is a failure Hot Air

EU chief warns ‘democracy could disappear’ in Greece, Spain and Portugal | Wolves of Liberty

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/world/asia/17japan.html

I was born in Canada and my wife in Great Britain. Happy! Not from my relative's perspective. It's falling apart faster over there than it is over here. Government cannot and never will sustain a robust economy. The math is simple. The government has to pay for every government employee and they only get back the taxes. So say $80,000 and they get back $20,000 (hypothetical) for a net LOSS of $60,000. Now look at the private sector. $80,000 with $20,000 taxes for a net government gain of $20,000. Do the math. Keynesian economics has been a disaster every time it is tried.

Obambi just admitted there is no such thing as a shovel ready job after spending hundreds of billions on shovel ready jobs!!!!! It was not the Great Deal that got us out of the great depression - it was WWII. Large scale social engineering is unsustainable. Simple arithmetic will tell you that, and current events and history will bear that out. The big word is Europe now is what???

AUSTERITY

And the people are rioting.

They are rioting themselves into a dictatorship. The frigging EU chief is warning the world. Do you have any idea what a sh*tstorm his statement kicked up?

Liberal education is nothing more than an attempt to turn a young, bright mind into a sponge. I know, while my education was in engineering, I spent a great deal of time auditing classes and taking classes as electives in political science. I walked out of college a flaming liberal. It took me 12 years to realize I was not using my own head and thinking for myself. I was just an ehco chamber for somebody else's idea. Then I turned into a flaming conservative and guess what - SAME SH*T, DIFFERENT DAY.

And I am still going to post reality here. You can read it if you want to learn about the truth about the founding of our country. This is not right or left wing. This covers the right to use Medicinal Marijuana -hell, the right to smoke it period - as well as the right to bear arms and the right to fight back against an encroaching government. I am neither right nor left - I am all over the map on many issues, but when it comes to the federal government and its powers, I am on the side of our founders and the historical facts will bear me out.

I am not a Republican, or Democrat, or Libertarian (I believe in a strong military). I was once told I am very close to what is called a neolibertarian (see qando.net) for a description. However, I can't be pinned down. I got over the brainwashing of liberalism, saw the duplicity of so-called conservatives and noted that the government is out for one thing - its own frigging power. If you don't believe me, read this:

Healthcare, Senator Jim DeMint And The Establishment GOP | Wolves of Liberty

I wrote it. If you think I am a cheerleader for the GOP this should put your mind to rest. Follow the link to Dr. Hunters expose of politicians - he spent his entire life around them since the days of Reagan. If you believe in your Utopian mind that either party gives a rats ass about you that is the first illusion you must rid yourself of if you are to have any chance of making sense of the reality of American politics. First rule: most politicians are full of it. Second rule: power corrupts. Third rule: without resistance the federal government will continue to grow to your detriment - (just ask most of Europe and take a detour to Iceland while you are at it). And don't believe for a second they are full of happy people. They may have been for a while - but now that the house of cards is falling down - happiness is the last thing on their mind. Their current stage is one of either Denial or Grief.

YOU can help stop it from happening here, but you have to cut the apron tie from the liberal professors who have turned a bright young mind to mush. Take back your right to your own mind and tell the political class and educational elites to go f**k themselves. They don't give a crap about you. I only want a GOP victory now to slow the bleeding. The patient will still need rescuing and it won't come from a new set of bums in DC - it will come from you, me, and the states and that is how our founders intended it. I'll take Jefferson, Madison and a host of others over any idiot professor or modern politician. They are dimples on a pimple on a nat fly's balls compared to the great men who founded this country.
 
To all those that disagree with the health care bill....what would you propose happen instead? Here's what I know, I know I cant possibly have anything to add because I didnt study with (insert name drop here) and only study lowly biology, but heres what I do know. Medicare, while flawed, works in the sense that older americans have access to healthcare they would not have once they quit work. They pick their own doctors, choose what, if any procuedure they want done, and pay a premium...and guess what...its a form of socialism! gasp!

I guess Im confused as to why the Gov doesn't make Medicare available to all, raise the premiums a bit for all (poor elderly, have to pay a bit more) but still leave the private sector insurance alone. If my work does not offer or i cant afford, I can choose medicare. I can insure my family reasonably and feel secure. If we open Medicare to more people, the pool of money increases as well, especially if we take into account that a vast majority of American as of yet haha
are not chronically ill and dont spend more than what they pay into the system.

The insurance problems didnt just happen over night. they were waiting to happen years before Obama came into office. Its insane to expect perfection the first time overhaul is tried.

On a personal note, I have been ill most of my life and have used insurance.....extensively. Obamas bill just made it illegal to create lifetime limits meaning that I cannot be kicked off my insurance for hitting an arbitrary payout limit. Also, now that I have a new kidney and will be looking for work, I cannot be denied coverage based on pre existing conditions. 2 things that I am immensely greatful for
 
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