Stealth500
Member
they'll get it
Lori
Lori
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic
- Thread starter Qingdao Sigma Chemicals
- Start date
Ghoul
Member
TLDR: QSC GH is working more effectively than the other brand:
(likely due to higher purity, different impurity profile, freshness so less degradation, fewer aggregates, etc all triggering less of an immune response)
Gynocomastia is associated with high levels of GH.
When growth hormone therapy loses effectiveness, endocrinologists test for growth hormone antibodies, a sign of immunogenicity, ie, developing an immunity to GH.
If antibodies are detected, the usual approach to overcoming immunity is to try a different brand.
So it sounds like if gyno is flaring up right after switching brand or batches, that's a clue you've developed antibodies neutralizing GH, and after the switch, it started working like it...
When growth hormone therapy loses effectiveness, endocrinologists test for growth hormone antibodies, a sign of immunogenicity, ie, developing an immunity to GH.
If antibodies are detected, the usual approach to overcoming immunity is to try a different brand.
So it sounds like if gyno is flaring up right after switching brand or batches, that's a clue you've developed antibodies neutralizing GH, and after the switch, it started working like it...
One of QSCs big advantages in peptides is simply their high volume of sales, which means faster stock turnover, and fresher product. Better to buy fish from a busy shop, than a quiet, dusty place with few customers.
Last edited:
My read was his issue seemed to be batch specific from scanning the thread.
Ghoul
Member
Since gyno is closely associated with higher levels of GH, when using xx mg of two brands/batches, and one is inducing gyno but the other isn't, that's pretty strong evidence one is effectively delivering more GH.
Overdosing is never more than ~20% so that's unlikely the cause of dramatic gyno.
Immunogenicity against GH develops in a pretty high proportion of users, it's just not well documented because clinically it rarely rises to "significant" level. Significant being defined as very slow of no growth in children, or a similar lack of response in IGF when treating adults. Some lesser amount of effectiveness loss is likely quite common. (see inhibition in the chart above)
So while gyno might be caused by some unique mechanism(some odd impurity for instance), I think this is one of those "if you hear galloping think 'horse' not 'unicorn' " situations.
For those using GH long term, a GH antibody test every 6 months or so is probably a good idea. The added complexity for UGL vs pharma however is batch to batch variance. So unfortunately a UGL brand that works well, with low immunogenicity, may completely change on the next batch if the UGL changes something, while pharma is going to be extremely consistent.
If I was using a UGL GH and had no antibodies develop while on it, I'd buy a long term supply and store it in a cryofreezer.
Last edited:
Gyno is caused by the particular individuals response to GH. All the other 'causes' per the injected HGH would be indirect.
Last edited:
AlmightyAlpha
Member
I'm glad I got my glands removed years ago. Now all I do is monitor bloodwork
Ghoul
Member
Since immunogenicity doesn't develop instantly, it's entirely possible he's developing it to the QSC batch now too. It started strong, gyno flared, and after a short while xx% of gh is now being inhibited, effectively lowering the dose.
Two other relevant factors:
~He stopped, then restarted using it. A "drug holiday" can trigger a stronger immune response when restarting vs "continuous exposure" to a peptide/protein. **
~Immune response is highly individual. He may just have a strong immune reaction to gh of all types.
Of course this is all hypothesis, and not only do we not have antibody test results, but usually, we don't have all the facts of what he's using, how he's using it, etc.
**on another note, I strongly suspect this is happening with GLPs. As the European Medicine Agency points out, the impact of immunogenicity (development of ADAs, Anti-drug Antibodies) is often not fully understood until some time, often years, after a peptide/protein therapeutic hits the market:
Last edited:
@Qingdao Sigma Chemicals the pricelist posted yesterday on telegram says 50 shipping to USA but the rep is trying to charge me 65 shipping? Which is it?
Last edited:
HUGE McBIGLARGE
Member
I know I asked this the other day, but it’s like 10 pages back now. So sorry for asking again.
But does QSC take bitcoin payments via lightning?
But does QSC take bitcoin payments via lightning?
mok4315
Member
That’s pretty bleak. Imagine losing 100, 200 pounds, maintaining for a few years at a lowish dose, then it stops working and you slowly regain all that weight. That’s some Flowers For Algernon shit right there.
Ghoul
Member
Not a phenomenon observed in 10,000+ participants in the pharma trials, including the multi year extended phases. No loss of efficacy with continuous exposure.
However, "it stopped working" is a common theme among non-pharma users.
It's important to understand that immunogenicity isn't usually binary, ie, it happens or it doesn't. It's often there but just kept in check. With x dose, diluted to x ratio, at x frequency, without interruption, it doesn't rise to a level where it compromised efficacy.
So you take one dose, the immunogenic reaction peaks at, using an arbitrary scale of 1-10, 5. A week later it's dropped to 3. You take another dose (another "exposure event") it peaks at 5, drops to 3 by the next weekly dose, and back up to 5 and so on, remaining at a stable level.
Now you take a "drug holiday", an extended break from use, immunogenicity drops to 0, but in the absence of exposure to the peptide your immune system builds up a nice supply of "memory T-cells", a "rapid response team" for future "invasions".
You take another dose after long break. immunogenicity response jumps to 8 and the drug is much more rapidly cleared from your system. A week later it's down to 5, and with the next dose it's back to 8, rapidly neutralizing the peptide, so the only way to get the same effect as previously is to increase the dose.
And there are other factors. We know from the trials there isn't a problem with 1 "exposure event" per week, but microdose and now you've got 7 exposure events, giving your immune system daily practice on ridding itself of this "infection". And ironically, small doses are often worse in terms of creating immune responses than larger ones.
So that's why screwing around with what's proven effective long term is so risky. In some individuals, this unwanted "enhanced immune response" can last for years. or even a lifetime.
Ateam2023
Member
you've only posted 33 messages, lmao
Justaguy99
Member
Any of you ever have a sudden change in aromatization?
Same cycle.
Same batch of gear.
Suddenly need hcg to keep e2 up.
Not concerned but if BF% is same any ideas what would equate to needing to add hcg.
Test/Primo
70/30
Same cycle.
Same batch of gear.
Suddenly need hcg to keep e2 up.
Not concerned but if BF% is same any ideas what would equate to needing to add hcg.
Test/Primo
70/30
Grey Spartan
Member
If I was to take a guess I would say a loss of visceral fat or just plain old adaptation.
Ateam2023
Member
Justaguy99
Member
Adaptation was my only guess.
Definitely leaner but maybe a % compared to prior.
See how she goes over next 10 weeks.
It's not happening.. lol.
mok4315
Member
Hope not. I can’t imagine what that would do to someone’s mental health.
Similar threads
